东西方间隙中的意识流
——访谈庞永杰的艺术
王宝菊
时间：二零零七 五 十三
地点：北京 朝阳区 望京
王宝菊（以下简称“王”）：上次听你说，想把以前的艺术创作告一段落，开始新的创作。所以我们今天的访谈是对你过去艺术生涯的一个梳理。这是有必要的，也是很有意义的。在厘清你的艺术脉络的同时，弄清楚你在艺术中最想表达的东西，为什么要以这种方式以及怎么会走到今天。我知道你不是那么善说的人。但是我觉得，也没关系，只要能说清楚就好。
从你的简历上看，你是91年到的北京。当时为什么想从山东到北京？
庞永杰（以下简称“庞”）：我好像没别的想法，只想画画。当时山东的当代艺术基本上是空白，我就想到美院来。而从山东师大毕业以后没工作，就直接跑过来了。到美院进修，就这样的。
王：你那个时候已经知道当代艺术？
庞：对，当时“八五新潮”中有一个鲁西南画派，董超是很有影响的一个，参加了很多大展，他和丁方、高名潞的关系都很密切。我就跟他的小兄弟们混，在十几岁的时候。虽然山东没有像四川、东北那种气氛浓厚，气氛相对较弱，但对当代艺术还是了解一些。
王：也比较早一些。然后就到了美院？
庞：对。
王：在美院进修的时候，当时是一个什么样的状态？是你一直想要的一种状态吗？
庞：当时想的很简单。以为一进美院，就好像能成大师的那样感觉。后来过了几个月，发现搞艺术还是要靠自己。进修了大概有半年的时间后，当时，我写实的功夫还是挺好的，但又觉得很矛盾，不想走这条路。但也没找到一个好的道，就在团结湖附近的东村,在那儿待着。当时包老师在做雕塑，需要找一些人。后来我跟着他做雕塑的时候，听他经常讲一些新鲜的理论，对我很有启发，一下子我就从写实发展到表现，当时画了一批很黑暗的东西。就这么一种状态。
王：那你当时和圆明园有关系吗？
庞：有。实际上，我90年还没有毕业的时候，想考美院，就偷偷跑到圆明园，在圆明园住过一个多月，后来就搬了很多地方。搬到过煤干院，在煤干院那会儿，隋老师他们在那儿有个工作室。
王：什么院？
庞：煤炭管理干部学院。二外那个地儿，实际上自己单独住，当时我也想了解当代艺术，一直是在做这个，也接触了他们，看他们的东西，那时候隋老师正做大的雕塑，搞石头。
王：捆扎石头。
庞：后来接触了一个朋友，说到圆明园。圆明园人多嘛，大概是我老婆生孩子的那一年吧，搬到圆明园去的。
王：那是哪一年？
庞：95年吧，95年春天的时候。
王：95年春天圆明园没解散吗？
庞：对，我们去了几个月就解散了。
王：那在圆明园的时候接触到一些什么样的艺术家呢？
庞：圆明园就是刘锋植这些人。
王：那段生活对你后来的艺术影响是什么呢？
庞：那批大头画就是在圆明园画的。那时候就想，在中国美术馆做一个展览，年底定了一个展览，那一年就是在那里画的，画了小孩刚出生的那个头。那时候好多艺术家被驱赶，有时便衣来敲门，艺术家就被抓走了。我老婆就把我反锁在屋里，就画出来了那一批东西。十几张画吧，就那个状态。
然后我们一起搬到东坝河，有刘锋植，包括好多人，我们都搬到那一块儿去了。
王：我注意到在你92年和94年的作品里面，有铁丝网，有粗大的围栅，有人物的纠结。似乎在言说人类无法逾越的困境——苦涩、困顿、挣扎。
庞：对，当时就是那样一种状态，是生活的一种感觉。
王：你是九几年做的艺术展览？
庞：1995年12月份的时候，在中国美术馆。
王：展览的反应怎么样？
庞：反应，表现还可以吧，就是一个小孩嘛，那时认识人很少，20几岁，就是那么一种想法。
王：在1995年后期的时候，你没有按照你原来的风格走下去，而是改变了。原来那种特暗的，特重的东西不见了。作品中的色调突然变得恬淡，画面的结构也显得轻松、随意。丰满的、面目模糊的女人形象开始出现在画面中。也就是你后来作品的雏形开始出现。那么是什么影响了你？改变了你？
庞：在中国美术馆做完展览以后，可能是1996年以后，我就开始慢慢关注民间的、东方的东西多一点。而在这之前，接触西方的东西多，东方的东西还很少。我看了很多民间的，也看日本的，所有的东西都看，包括印度的东西。
实际上从1995年到2000年，这是一个过程，这个过程可能现在图片上呈现的东西不多。但那时候，包括我们展览的“大头”那个形象，已经跟这个形象有联系了，后来1996年一直到2000年，慢慢开始形成这个东西。好像是自画像，一直摆脱不掉，一直是一种形象伴随着。
王：那实际上成为你后来作品的一个雏形。那你这段时间是受到东方的一些影响？
庞：对，东方的。我那段时间，一直很深入地在研究，差不多有四年的时间。
王：那一段时间应该是1997年到2001年，我发现这段时间一直没有新的作品出现，那这段时间等于是停顿的？
庞：也不是说停顿。那段时间，1997年到98年，我已经搬到通县了，跟滨河那边的一帮人在一起。那时刚开始有雏形的时候，我也跟这帮人天天在一起，肯定会考虑应该怎么走这些路子。并且那个时候，我也想到了画一种比较写实的东西，后来发现太多相象的东西，也想跟它对抗，本能的有一种好像别人那样做，我就不愿意那样做。当时实际上还没有别的人，在研究那些东西。
王：那到底是什么东西影响了你？
庞：实际上还是那种很自然的东西，很本能的东西。
王：是东方哲学中的精髓吗？
庞：有哲学的东西，但我还是比较排斥那种纯理性的、理论性的东西。我周围的朋友很多，包括一些大师啊，从理论上我也不是很想走这条路，还是从感受上去找，包括民间上的东西，一种很自然的东西，对我的影响比较大一些。理论上我也看，但是我好像不愿走过于理性的路。
王：你还是从视觉上感受的，包括你前面提到的。比如说，日本和印度的东西的一些影响。
庞：对，主要看图片，理论的东西我也看，但是还是直觉的东西多。
王：但是，这些东西里面一定有什么东西在支撑你。
庞：是。
王：是什么东西呢？
庞：怎么说呢，是很东方的那种，一看就很容易接近，应该叫和谐吧，我感觉那种东西很难说出来，我感觉那种东西跟我的生命是相通的。
王：然后你回过头来，把它用到自己的作品上。
庞：对。当时我就想，所谓的前卫当代，不能说东方的东西就不是当代了，看你怎么理解，从什么角度去做。
王：1996年的时候，你作品中那种形象就特别完整地出现了，就是那种丰乳肥臀的女人。
庞：应该是从96年开始，到98年开始有个形，然后到2000年。基本上，这种形象就差不多了，有这种形象了 。
王：那为什么这样一个女人会出现呢？
庞：我觉得好象是自己吧，是自画像，它就象是自我的东西。
王：但是你是男人。
庞：在画面上很多人都说是女的，但我感觉，它不是女人，它是一种中性的，一种宽泛的，或者只是一个自画像，是自己的东西。
王：它实际上是代表你内心的一种想法，只不过是以一个女人的形象作为载体来体现。
庞：对，对。
王：那么这样一个女人，在2001年的时候，在你的作品中又转换成了一个动物。
庞：对。
王：那怎么理解它以动物的形式出现呢？
庞：在我的印象中，动物实际上是一种更宽泛的概念。我的理解是，我性格比较宽，好像接纳东西比较多，不是说，非要是哪一种东西。动物也好，人类也好，它是一种很神秘的东西，比较朦胧，有那种很神秘的感觉，出来一个形象后我没有下笔，但那种感觉突然会出现在脑子里面，然后这种形象慢慢地沉淀下来，一般过了一两个月，再看看这种形象是不是很强烈，如果它还在，就突然一画就出来了。
王：我看到这些女人是樱桃红唇，乳房很大，这种东方写意式的画面，与“性”有关吗？
庞：有关系，实际上关于“性”我的理解就是自由，特别是像我们这一类，生活一直在漂泊，可能对自身的关注更多一点，对自身的尊严、自由这种东西，看得更重，这是一种自由的方式。
王：说它是女人也好，是男人自画像也好，但它不是直立行走的。同时它只有躯干，只有乳房和丰臀。足的行走功能，手的劳作功能在这里被隐去了。它是一种孕育和承载。同时也是人的精神状态的自在和优游，生命的丰盈和享乐。有没有一种生殖崇拜的东西在里面？
庞：实际上没有什么生殖崇拜，我画的东西还是一种意识的流露，感觉性的东西多一点，并没有什么太原始的东西在里面。我的东西可能同性恋的人收藏的比较多。当时很多人问我，你是不是同性恋。但跟这没关系，可能他们喜欢的东西，跟我表达的那种比较宽泛的东西相通。因为同性恋在当今社会也受压抑，也受歧视，可能这里面没有这种压抑的东西，他只是把人和动物，把男性、女性全部统一到里面，是一个统一体。
王：实际上所谓生殖崇拜也好，同性恋也好，性也好，都是后来衍生出的意义，它并不是你的初衷。
庞：对。虽然他可能表面上是那种东西，但我内心想表达的还是一种自由，一种方式，就是行走，一种意识流，好像电影“蒙太奇”行走的那种方式，一种梦幻的感觉，并不是一个生殖器，男性、女性，并不太强调这个。
并且好多人会说，唐代的这些东西是不是对我影响特别大。也可能受一定影响，也可能它是综合的东西。至于这个肥的东西，我从小画画就有一种本质上的比较夸张的东西，一种感觉性的东西，可能慢慢还是画面本身形成的东西。
王： 那么你的作品和中国传统哲学中崇尚的大象无形，有没有关系？
庞：可能有。因为我本身的性格比较通的，本身的性格带有更多感性的东西，但我不是刻意把它套在某一个地方，是很意识性的东西，不让它定在哪一个点上。
王：包括不定在艳俗艺术 ？
庞：对 。
王：那你觉得你的作品和艳俗的关系是怎样的？
庞：我觉得没太大的关系，就是有一点反叛的东西，虽然表面上看，我是很温和的，但我这个人是走极端的。比如在当代艺术这种大环境下，我走的也是一种很对抗的东西。
王：对抗什么？
庞：对抗一种暴力。想探索另外一种道路，想证明另外一种也是很当代的。
王：你是说那种过于意识形态的、过于符号化的、过于带有指涉意义的东西。
庞：对。应该有个人化。虽然有潮流这种东西，但也应该有很多有个性的画家存在，有个性的艺术家，做自己的东西。
王：其实你的东西，我觉得和艳俗的东西实际上是有交叉的。
庞：对，有，但很少，有那一点。
王：因为从表面上看，都是很光亮的，很平滑的，造型上是很夸张的。
庞：对，主要还有一点，我觉得越艳俗，就越是那种平民化的东西。我们脑子里没有权威，而是把权威给消解了。这可能跟我们的处境有关系。我们这帮人从90年代初就在这儿混。
王：那你现在把自己定位在哪一种呢？
庞：我觉得还是定位我自己吧，我就按照我自己的路子去走。
王：那么，你是从什么时候开始把画面的东西转到雕塑上去？
庞：2001年。实际上到2004年才做出来。这个形，在原来画面上确立以后，就觉得做成雕塑更有意思，更强烈。而有这个想法，已经好几年了。刚开始也是反复考虑，考虑这个感觉是不是很强烈，很强烈就开始着手去做这个东西。原来还没有这么纯粹。可能是个动物，也可能是一个人，还是什么，那么做出来就忽然变成了动物。
当时想烧这种瓷，但烧不出来那种感觉，就是说我要的那个感觉没出来，后来就做玻璃钢，玻璃钢达到了我预想的效果。现在的不锈钢效果就更好了。
王：上次我看了你拍的图片，其实我特别喜欢你这一部分。就是把雕塑放到了不同的环境中——森林中，溪湖边，田野里，瀑布下，发电厂旁，高速行驶的火车道边，美丽的菜花丛中，甚至出没在 中国古代的园林中。在这里，不管是成群结队还是形单影只，你的作品转换成了一种精灵、甚至是幽灵般的方式出现，和不同的环境发生关系，成为你创造出来的对社会各个角落进行哲学式探询的 玩偶，以一种自在、优游、神秘的姿态，成为这个城市、甚至这个社会的一个异类。
庞：实际上我这个雕塑现在可能有一点不同，说神秘也好，说一个活动的东西也好，它就是和环境有关系，它是一个活的东西，它就像一个幽灵一样，它会出来。可能以往的雕塑，它就是一个雕塑，它就放在那儿。但是我的雕塑，它更强化了，它从湖里面爬出来，像一个远古的东西，或者说是一种精灵，说它西方也好，东方也好，它都跟环境有关系，跟文化有关系。
王：那些东西现在还放在那儿吗？还是说，拍完照片就离开了？
庞：拍完就离开了。因为要拍很多地方。这些东西一直是一种很纯粹的东西，我想往很纯粹的方向去走。
王：我回过头来再问这样一个问题，2002年以前，画面颜色是比较单纯的，2002年以后，画面颜色就有红色、粉色、绿色。女人的形象也是以群像出现的。
庞：对，实际上到2002年的时候，那个时候画面是有很多戏剧性的，画面感是很强的，但那是一个过程，我想往下走的一种过程。有一段时间，大概有两年时间，是慢慢地、慢慢地变成这种群体的。是当时内心里面有这种要求。
王：现在有很多艺术家住在宋庄，你在宋庄也住了很久。那你住在这里的感受是怎样的？
庞：我住在宋庄，但是我觉得自己跟宋庄没什么关系。我是特别反感把自己定位在哪一个区域里面，包括我刚到宋庄的时候，就特别反感，觉得好像宋庄是谁谁的。
王：你不想被任何名称定义。
庞：对。起码不能被任何一个地方定义，那种感觉就好象是占山为王，或者有一种团体个性，我觉得应该是一种自我的东西，不管像还是不像，应该是一种个体的东西，它是独立的。
王：我看过你写的短文，比如说与抢占高地的前卫艺术保持距离，与离艺术直觉越来越远的观念艺术保持距离，与追逐和拷贝现有成功的“趋炎附势”保持距离，与沦为装饰的抽象和沦为符号的量贩保持距离。想保持这些距离是需要勇气的。你觉得那种保持距离对你来说意义是什么？
庞：就是一个艺术家的个性。我当时跟滨河那边很多人在一起，不是那种很刻意的保持距离。比如说，在滨河，有做前卫的，做图片的，或者是做什么的，可能时间长了大家就有一种很像的东西，我就很清醒的意识到，像我们那一代，做什么东西，首先要考虑像不像别人，不是说，我不跟这个有关系，但是说，别人做过了，我再做没什么兴奋感，我做这一类，如果别人没做过，我就很兴奋，就会顺着原来的路往下走。
王：而你不用在乎他做什么，只要属于你自己的东西。
庞：对，我可能从小生活在农村，那种感悟的东西比较多一点，首先要尊重自己的东西王：如何解释你作品中的中式情怀？
庞：中式情怀，是我表现的一种性格的东西，他是一种含蓄的、东方人的气质，对性的理解，对人的理解 ，跟西方人不一样。西方人可能更暴露，可能生殖器啊，那些东西更直接一点，而我更含蓄。包括我第一次做雕塑的时候，当时有个朋友帮我做，有两个小时我没在，他们把生殖器做的很邪乎，我说那不是我要的那种感觉，我要的是我的意识流露出来的作品。
王：实际上在你的作品当中，我没有看到性的东西，我看到的是一种生命，一种包容，一种接纳。
庞：对，实际上东方是很包容的。
王：你一直在强调东方的东西对你的影响，那西方的东西有没有影响到你？
庞：实际上我对西方的了解还是比较多的。我喜欢读书，看东西，基本上都很了解。虽然我很少出门，但对国内的一些方面我也很了解，我也很关注这个。
王：那你觉得哪个方面影响多一点儿？
庞：西方的也有一部分，精神方面的影响比较多。实际上我是在东西方的间隙中。
王：你刚才谈到在做下一步的东西，下一步是什么样的作品？是完全不同还是一种延续？
庞：应该说是一种延续。这有点像我四、五年前的一种心态。完成一件事情后，我再做就没有新鲜感，那么我肯定去找新的新鲜感，找新奇的东西。
王：你现在还不明确，你说的只是一种感觉。
庞：对，我现在每次的变化都是这种感觉，是一种心态，突然一种东西，在我心里相对完整了，突然我就会有一些变化。那要看感觉，有时候不是急的事情。
王：你认为艺术家和艺术是同一的吗？
庞：是的。谈到对画面、对线条的理解，人们总是认为它们是东方的，实际上它不是，它是一种感觉的东西。这可能就跟性格有关。我的性格就是不拘小节，对那种细节的东西不是太在意，那是从小就有的一种性格。画家性格不同，他就会出现不同的东西，走不同的路。比如说有的艺术家他很理性，一件作品能解释好几个小时，我肯定解释不了，不是一类的东西，像人一样是不同类的。人的性格各方面不是简单划一的，包括现在我做的作品，别人一看就是我自己，像自画像。在我这里，艺术家和艺术是同一的。
王：你从小就画画吗？
庞：我从小并不知道什么是画画，12岁才知道有“美术”这个词，12岁才知道上了初中考大学。实际上一直跟个人有关，家里人不让画，因为没有什么前途。而我小时候很怪，很有名的。后来一画画就好了。
王：很淘气。
庞：也不是很淘气，是很“扭”，很“别”的那种。
王：画画以后正常了。画画释放了你对生活的感受。
庞：对，画画以后。我母亲以前是妇联主任，我们那儿大家都知道她有个小孩不说话，跟着她后面不知道干什么，谁也问不出一个字。
王：那个时候有多大？
庞：十岁以前。我那个时候只吃一个馒头，没有馒头吃我就饿几天，不吃饭。那儿的小孩都知道，方圆几十里的小孩都知道，有我这样一个特别怪的一个小孩，农村那个时候是没有引导的，也没有美术。
王：那你那个时候为什么不说话，你现在知道吗？
庞：就好像是那种你越是要求我说，我就越不说，很倔的那种。
王：很倔，那你有话跟谁说呢？跟谁都不说吗？
庞：对。 当时我跟朋友也很好，我交了好多好朋友。但是你非要强加于我，我就是不说话，就是这种感觉。
王：那我觉得你这些后来的作品，和你当时你生长在山东的……
庞：那个性格，那个环境有关系。
王：就是那个平原吗？
庞：对，一个平原。
王：望不到边。
庞：对。
王：那是不是可以说实际上这种生长环境决定了你的性格，你的性格决定了你现在的艺术？
庞：是。那个时候我们家离黄河比较近，我就记得我一个人带着一个小伙伴去，去到野地里去看花儿，但是当时不懂，也不知道怎么画。但坐在那里一看就是一上午，或者就是一天。就是那一种。这个性格还是跟那有关系。
王：是，所以回到我的这种想法，我觉得你的东西还是和土地、和生命有关系，和当代的那些东西还是没有关系的，是不受外界影响的，应该是你内心的因素。
庞：对，应该是从感受出发，从内心出发。但是我不是一个太保守的人。
王：想问一下，你作品的市场情况怎样？
庞：从1999年开始作品就卖得很好了。
王：那从1999年卖得好了以后，市场有没有影响你的创作？
庞：没有，我很好。甚至在1996年、97年，有一个新加坡画廊，当时看我的画，很喜欢。但他们要求再画一只鸟在上面，我肯定不会干，肯定会跟他拜拜。那时候，一年已经给到几十万了。我不是那种性格。你越要求我，我就……。
王：偏不这么干。
庞：对，有点儿那个意思。我不太愿意别人将东西强加给我，特别敏感这种东西。
王：你是比较叛逆。
庞：实际上我的画，感觉也是挺叛逆的。包括当时，和一帮朋友在一起，我知道跟着别人走很省事，因为我基本功又好，那种感觉很容易。但是，走我自己的路很难，但我有思想准备。
The streem of consciousness in the gap between east and west
-----The interview with Pangyongjie about his art
By Wangbaojv
2007-5-13
Wangjing, Chaoyang district, Beijing
Wangbaojv(Wang for short): Last time you mentioned that you would like to conclude the previous artistic creation and begin something new. So today’s interview would be a general summary of your past artistic career which is quite necessary and significant and at the same time I’d like to make sure what you want to express most in art and why you chose this kind of expression up to now. I know you are not an eloquent person that doesn’t matter as long as you can make yourself understood.
From your resume you came to Beijing in 1991, why did you come to Beijing from Shandong?
Pangyongjie (Pang for short): I had no other thought except for drawing. In fact at that time there was almost no modern art in Shandong so I’d like to seek my path in The Central Institute of Fine Art. And I didn’t have a job after graduated from Shandong Normal University so I came to Beijing to pursuit further study at The Central Institute of Fine Art.
Wang: Then you had already learned about modern art?
Pang: Yes, there’s a Shandong southwest school in “85 New Trend” and among them Dongchao was an influential one. He took part in many important exhibitions and had close relationship with Dingfang and Gaominglu. I got along with some of his followers when I was a teenager. So I knew a little of Modern art though in Shandong the art atomosphere was weaker compare to that of in Sichuan or Dongbei.
Wang: As early as that, you came to Beijing after that?
Pang: yes.
Wang: What was your state like when you were studying in The Central Institute of Fine Art? Was that the state you have been always looking for?
Pang: I was quite na?ve at that time, I thought I would become a master once entering The Central Institute of Fine Art. But after about half a year I found that to engage in art one has to depend on oneself. My true-life skills was good after studying there for half a year but I was in a serious conflict as I didn’t like this style. However I hadn’t find a better one for myself at that time therefore I stayed at Dongcun near Tuanjie lake. Then Prof. Bao was making sculptures and needed some helpers. I could always learned some fresh theories while I was following Prof.Bao making his sculptures which was a great inspiration for me. From that time I converted from realism to expressionism and created some dark paintings. That was my early state.
Wang: Had you moved to Yuanmingyuan (the surrounding area near The Imperial Garden) at that time?
Pang: Yes, in fact I hoped to pursuit further education at The Central Institute of Fine Art before graduating from Shandong Normal University. So I came to Yuanmingyuan and stayed there for more than one month and moved several times after that. I used to live in the residential area of the institute for training coalmine administrator where Prof. Sui had a studio.
Wang: What institute?
Pang: The coal industry administrator institute near the Second
Foreign Language School where I lived by myself. I also hoped to learn contemporary art. So I got acquainted with some of those people and had seen some of their works. Prof.sui was making big sculptures at that time, including stone sculptures.
Wang: Enlace stones.
Pang: Later I met a friend, speaking of Yuanmingyuan there were a lot of artists living there. I moved there in the year when my son was born.
Wang: When was that?
Pang: In the spring of 1995,.
Wang: Didn’t that artists group dissolve?
Pang: Right, it dissolved after I had moved there for several months.
Wang: What kind of artists did you met there?
Pang: Someone like Liouzhifeng.
Wang: How did that period of life influence you in art?
Pang: The batch of paintings with big heads was created at that time in Yuanmingyuan. I was thinking to hold an exhibition at the Chinese Art Gallery and made a reservation for the end of that year. I drew a head of a newborn baby. A lot of artists living near yuanmingyuan were dispelled. Sometime fly cops would come to knock at the door and artists were taken away. My wife locked me inside my room then I produced more than ten paintings. After that we moved to Dongbahe alone with Liuzhifeng and a lot of others. We all lived in the same area.
Wang: I have noticed that in your paintings created between 1992 and 1994 contained some wires or thick bar even the entanglement of people. They seem to express the plights people would never be able to conquer--bitterness, misery and struggle.
Pang: Yes, I was in that kind of state. That was exactly what I felt in life then.
Wang: In which year did you hold an art exhibition?
Pang: That was in Dec.1995 at the Chinese Art Gallery.
Wang: What were the feedbacks?
Pang: It’s OK considering I was still very young with few acquaintances in this field. I just wanted to express my ideas.
Wang: But by the end of 1995 your original style was changed from dark and heavy one into lighter hue, and the composition of the picture became easy and unbending. The plump women with blurry face were presented in your paintings. And that was the rudiment of your later style. What caused you to make such changes?
Pang: Since 1996 I’ve paid more attention to the folk and oriental elements after holding my painting exhibition in the Cheese Art Gallery. Before that I exposed myself more than western style. I became interested in all kinds of folk painting including that of Japan and India.
In fact it was a slow process from 1995 to 2000 and that influence might not show itself fully in my painting at that time. But then, the “Big head” image displayed at the Chinese Art Gallery was already relevant to my new style. From 1996 to 2000 a new image was gradually formed. Just like a self-portrait, once established, then you could never get rid of it.
Wang: In fact that become a rudiment of your later works, is that due to the oriental influence of that period?
Pang: That’s right. I had been studying the oriental art for about four years.
Wang: Then that should be from 1997 to 2001, and I’ve noticed that you had no new work during that period of time. Like a pause?
Pang: I wouldn’t call it a pause because I moved to Tongzhou in 1997 to 1998 and was influence by the group of people in Binhe, surely I would think of my future style after I had my rudimentary idea. During that time, I thought of a more realistic style but later I found that there was a lot of people were doing the similar thing, so instantly I wanted to counter this trend as I do not want to follow the trend. In fact, there was no one to study that stuff as I did at that time.
Wang: What on earth influenced you?
Pang: In fact it is a very natural and instinct feeling.
Wang: Is the essence in oriental philosophy?
Pang: There’s some stuff in philosophy that influenced me, but I reject those rationality or theory. I have many friends including some masters. But I wanted to find my own way from my emotions or from folk art, in a word from something natural. I did learn some theories, but I don’t like to be over rational.
Wang: So your feelings are mainly from visual effect including what you have motioned above such as the art of Japan and India.
Pang: Yes, I study mainly through looking at pictures, I also read theoretical essay but the institutive stuff influences me most.
Wang: There must be something in it that spiritually supports you.
Pang: Yes.
Wang: What’s that?
Pang: How should I put it? It’s a kind of oriental harmony that is easy to feel but hard to express in words .I feel that stuff is relevant to my life.
Wang: So you applied it in your artwork?
Pang: Right. I thought the so-called contemporary avant-garde art did not exclude eastern art. How to define it depends on individual perspective and understanding.
Wang: As early as 1996 the complete image of the woman with big hip and plump breast was formed in your works.
Pang: Yes, I had the ides since 1996, in 1998 the general shape was formed and basically till 2000 the style had been established.
Wang: Why did you chose such kind of woman image?
Pang: I consider it a self-portrait, more or less a kind of self-expression.
Wang: But you are a man.
Pang: Many people believe the image is a woman, however, that is not a woman but a neutral, a broader concept or only a self-portrait that is something private.
Wang: Actually it represents a profound idea in your heart but incarnated in the image of a woman.
Pang: Exactly.
Wang: Then this woman image is turned into a beast in your sculpture in 2001.
Pang: Right.
Wang: How should we understand that animal image?
Pang: In fact, animal is a broader concept in my mind. I’m an open-minded and tolerate person. No matter what it is, an animal or a man ,to me they are the same mysterious and obscure. At first I didn’t try to capture the mysterious feeling with my brush but to let it brainstorm in my mind until it sink into something concrete. After two or three months I would think of it again to see if my feeling for it is strong enough or the image is good enough. If it is there, then I would put it on the paper.
Wang: Does the oriental enjoyable elements in your pictures such as all your woman images with cherry-red lips and big breast have anything to do with “sex”?
Pang: Yes, In fact my interpretation for “sex” is freedom, especially for those gang-there-out people like me; we would pay more attention to the dignity and freedom of an individual. And this is a free approach.
Wang: Whether your sculpture is a woman or a man’s self-portrait, it is not standing and has only limbs, big breasts and big hip. The walking and working functions of feet and hands were concealed. It is a kind of cultivation and it bears the weight of history, at the same time it expresses the spiritual freedom and pleasure as well as the richness and joy of our life. Is there a procreate worship involved?
Pang: Actually there’s no procreate worship. My concept is to express an idea, perhaps it contains more sentient elements but not much primitive stuff. As many homosexuals collect my paintings some people asked me whether I was a homosexual or not. In fact this question is an irrelevant one. They like my painting may result from the broad concept I advocate. As homosexuals, they are oppressed and discriminated in the society. Perhaps they find no oppressive stuff in my painting but a united image contains all animals and human beings regardless of man or woman.
Wang: Therefore the so-called procreant worship or homosexual or sexual meaning are not your original intentions but derived meanings.
Pang: That’s right. Someone may interpret them superficially, but what I want to express is a kind of freedom, a manner or a stream of consciousness that is to walk in a “montage” way, in a dreamy feeling. It is not genitalia or a men, a woman. I have not put my emphasize on this. And many people asked me whether I was greatly influenced by the artistic images of Tang Dynasty. I maybe influenced by them to a certain degree, but generally speaking it is an integrated influence. As to obesity, I had the inclination of exaggerating in my painting since I was young, and the sentient elements may be formed naturally from the picture itself.
Wang: Does your work have anything to do with the advocated concept of “great picture seems no form” in Chinese traditional philosophy?
Pang: Perhaps. That was in accordance with my character. I’m a sentimental and versatile type. I would allow my consciousness to flow freely instead of binding it on a point.
Wang: Including amorous art?
Pang: Yes.
Wang: Do you think there’s a relationship between your art and amorous art?
Pang: I don’t think there is much relationship except for their bolshy spirit. Superficially I am a mild person but in fact I always run to an extreme. Such as in this contemporary art environment I adopt an oppositional way.
Wang: Oppose what?
Pang: Against all kinds of violence. I hope to explore a new way or to prove the value of another form of contemporary art.
Wang: You mean those over ideological, over symbolic or over allusive stuff.
Pang: That’s right, individuality should be advocated. More and more artists with unique style should be allowed to engage in their pursuit despite of the trend.
Wang: In fact I think your work is related to amorous art.
Pang: Yes, indeed, but only a little.
Wang: Because on the surface, the sculpture is very bright and smooth, with an exaggerated shape.
Pang: Yes, there’s no authority in my mind and I think that the more amorous the more civilian. I am the product of our environment in which my friends and I have stayed since the early 1990s.
Wang: What kind of style do you belong to?
Pang: I would rather be myself and go my own way.
Wang: When did you begin to apply the image from your pictures to your sculptures?
Pang: In 2001, in fact the sculptures were not done until 2004. Once the image was established I found it would be more interesting and forceful to make it a sculpture. And I had this idea for several years. At first I thought it over but considering at that time I did not have a very strong feeling for it when I did I set about doing it. The original image in my mind was not very clear: it might be an animal or a man or something else. But when it came out, it became an animal.
I tried to bake this kind of porcelain but was unable to achieve a satisfactory effect. Later I used glass-steel and I made it. And now the stainless steel brings better effect.
Wang: Last time I saw the photos and I like best. You placed your sculptures in different surroundings—in the forest, by the lake, in the field, at the waterfall, near to the power plant, next to the railway with trains passing by at high speed, in clumps of cauliflowers, even in the Chinese ancient garden. Here, you turned your sculpture into spirit no matter it was alone or in-groups. It even emerged as a ghost related itself with different surroundings or became your doll to philosophically explore the problems in every corner of the society. It is unique in its free, leisurely and mysterious stance, which is quite different in our society.
Pang: Actually this sculpture is different not only because it is mysterious, but also because it seems alive and relevant to its environment. Not like previous sculptures that just stood there, my sculpture would come out like a ghost, sometimes it creeps out from the lake like a spirit from ancient time. Whether occidental or oriental it is closely related to its environment and culture.
Wang: Have you still put those sculptures there or you have taken them back after taking those photos?
Pang: I took them back because I had many settings to shoot. These
Sculptures are pure stuff and purity is a path I choose to take.
Wang: I’d like to ask this question again. Before 2002, your paintings were more pure in color, after that you use red, pink and green in your pictures and the woman images are presented in-groups.
Pang: You’re right. Till 2002 my paintings were generally dramatic with strong sense of composition, but that was only a process that lasted for about two years, and gradually turned into this group images. It is to meet the call from my heart.
Wang: Now many artists live in Song Village, and you have stayed there for a long time, how do you feel like living there?
Pang: I live there yet I feel less attached to it. I’m strongly against the idea of confining oneself to any area. When I just moved there I was quite uncomfortable with that concept as if Song village belongs to somebody.
Wang: So you defy any form of definition.
Pang: Yes, at least one should not defined oneself by any place.
That was like occupying or ruling a place, or granted a united personality for a group. However, I think artistic creation should be an individual behavior, should be independent.
Wang: I have read your article on keeping distance from the avant garde artists who seek to grasp the favorable position, keeping distance from concept art that go further away from the artistic instinct, keeping distance from the opportunists who copy the established success, keeping distance from the art venders who sink to decorative and symbolic abstract. Great courage is needed to keep this distance, and what do you think is the significant in doing so?
Pang: To maintain the individuality as an artist. At that time I had many friends coming from Binhe, I didn’t intentionally keep distance from them. Among them there are avant-garde style, photographer etc. Perhaps people would learn from each other unintentionally, so I realized that for our generation no matter what kind of art form we are engage in, the first consideration should be different from any other people’s art. That is not to say that I have no relationship with them, but means that I would lose excitement to try if someone has done it.
Wang: But you don’t have to care about others as long as you follow
your own heart.
Pang: Yes, when I was a child I lived in the countryside, where I cultivated my sensibility. Therefore, I think first of all one should respect ones work.
Wang: How to explain the Chinese preference in your work?
Pang: Chinese preference is a manner I use to express personality. That is an occidental implicative temperament, and the Chinese interpretation for people or for sex is quite different from that of westerner’s. Westerners are more direct towards sex. I remembered the first time I made a sculpture by myself and a friend of mine gave me a hand. Once I was away for two hours seeing that the genitalia of the sculpture was exaggerated when I came back. I told them that were not the feeling I wanted. What I had in mind was an artwork coming from my consciousness.
Wang: In fact I have not seen anything obscurity in your work, what I see is a kind of tolerant and receptive attitude towards life.
Pang: Yes, indeed the oriental culture is very tolerant.
Wang: You’ve been emphasized on the oriental influences on your work, I’d like to know whether there’s any western influences?
Pang: Actually I have learned a lot about western culture through reading. I like reading though I seldom go out but I learn some aspect of the domestic circumstance very well through reading.
Wang: Which influenced you more?
Pang: western culture influences me in a spiritual way. In fact I stand in the gap between east and west.
Wang: Just now you mentioned your next work, what kind of work will it be? A different style or a consistent one?
Pang: I should say that it would be a consistent style. I would look for something new when I lose a sense of freshness.
Wang: You are not so sure about it now but depend on your feelings?
Pang: That’s right. Every time when I feel that something is completely achieved I would have some new ideas. That depends on my feelings but not something could be speeded up.
Wang: Do you identify the artist with his or her artwork?
Pang: Yes. Speaking of the understanding of the composition and lines, people always regard it as an oriental technique, but in fact it is not. It’s a sensorial stuff, which related to one’s characters. I am not strict to the small things that is my inborn character. The character of each painter is different surely their styles will be different. Such as some rational artists could explain their artworks for several hours, which is hard for me. Human personalities are not identical and different people create different artwork. For example, like a self-portrait, my style would be recognized instantly. Therefore, as far as I’m concerned, we can identify the artist with their works.
Wang: When did you begin to paint? When you were a kid?
Pang: I did not know much about painting when I was little.
I learned the word “fine art” when I was 12 .My parents din not allow me to paint as they thought it will not ensure me a bright future. I was a strange boy and I was alright since I begin to paint.
Wang: You were a naughty boy?
Pang: Not very much, but I was an odd boy.
Wang: You came back to normal after drawing pictures that released your feelings for life.
Pang: that’s right. My mom was the director of woman union then. Everybody known that her son did not speak at all.
Wang: How old were you?
Pang: In my teens. At that time I ate only one steam bread a day and would go hungry for several days if there’s nothing to eat. All children nearby knew me as a strange boy. There’s no fine art or anyone you can turn to for artistic cultivation.
Wang: Then why didn’t you speak?
Pang: I was over-obstinate and would not speak when I was asked to.
Wang: Then if you had something to say whom should you turn to?
Pang: I had some close friends too. But if I was forced to do anything, I would never obey.
Wang: I think your artwork is relevant to your growing environment in Shandong.
Pang: Indeed, my character was formed there.
Wang: Is that a plain?
Pang: Yes, a plain.
Wang: A vast plain?
Pang: Yes.
Wang: Could we say that this growing environment decide your character and your character decide your art?
Pang: Yes, I lived near the Yellow river at that time, I still remember once I went to the wild to see wild flowers with a friend. I knew nothing
about painting but I would sit there watching for half a day or even for a whole day. That is me. My career and my state is closely related to this character.
Wang: Your work is closely related to the earth and the life of your hometown but not contemporary art. Your root is there, your heart decide what you are doing now and you are not subjected to any outside influences,
Pang: Right, my work is from my heart, from my feelings. And I’m not a very conservative person.
Wang: May I ask the marketing circumstance of your works?
Pang: My works have been sold well since 1999.
Wang: Did that influence your creation? I mean after 1999.
Pang: No, I was alright. Even in 1996 and 1997 when a Singapore gallery appreciated my painting but they asked to add a bird on it to which I firmly rejected and ended my cooperation with them. At that time, they paid me millions of RMB a year. Yet I am not a docile person and will not be subjected to any outside pressure.
Wang: You never.
Pang: Right, to some degree. I do not like the feeling that something was forced on me, and I’m very sensitive to that.
Wang: You are very rebellious.
Pang: Indeed my paintings are rebellious. I knew it would be much easier if I follow other’s style, as my basic skills are good. However I chose to go my own way, it will be a hard way but I’m fully prepared.